Curse

Bill Clinton · Feb 20, 2010, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

Elaborate on this one?

Old players have spent the past two years abusing SF to get super rare items and FoW with extra cheap ectos. It already takes double the effort for a new player to earn just as many ectos as someone would have this time last year.

Now with even less/more difficult venues for earning money its going to be almost impossible for newcomers to get into the high end market.

enter_the_zone · Feb 20, 2010, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Regina, seriously...

"we’d like to establish clearer guidelines for ourselves and for players as to what is and isn't acceptable"

Something "isn't acceptable" when

A) ANET make the skills, lady, we just use them
B) it's been in the game for literally YEARS!
C) No mention of the original invinci-monk (55hp) at all. I wonder if that has anything to do with one of your own people having made the first invincible character....
D) which then makes your meally mouthed prattlings ring utterly false.

GG Anet. Hell, half of all I do nowadays is DTSC or VSF, aside from grinding Nick's drops. Why? Because it's fun and failing at DoA, or UW or FoW in a balanced team (I don't do speed clears, I suck as perma, IMO) has ZERO appeal. I'd rather go play something else. But, if I do that, don't expect me, or the legion of others like me, to come back to GW2.

Queue mass exodus of casual players, Queue the abuse of some other skill/build by the HC crowd, Queue the ANet QQ and subsequent nerf, Queue the death of Guild Wars.

How, in 4, nearly 5 years, haven't you observed the endless cycle of meta/ nerf meta/ new meta/ nerf meta/ new meta/ nerf new meta until almost every skill is pointless, then you have to buff them insanely, restarting the cycle? Rebalancing pvp is great, but Anet sucks at PVE balance, always has. Just leave it alone already, the economy is utterly ruined already (precisely because Anet sucks at balancing, and left SF and 600 so long), so how can it possibly make a difference. New players buying this game should take one look at the update history, one look at guru auctions, log off and never log back on. You've made it pointless for them to even try.

ProX AcciaiO · Feb 20, 2010, 01:40 PM // 13:40

i try, i don't know english very well: i can understand but when i have to explain my ideas comes the problems xD

new players will play, for make a fow, or the chaos glover, many more hours then the old players: the speed clears lead down the economy of the game, the ectos, the obby shards, the weapons, all. return now at the prices of prophecies before the greens, have no sense for me

upier · Feb 20, 2010, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

Its been mentioned many times. 600/Smite is not as simple as Press skil 1, then 2, then 3. It takes two people to pull off in any situation and it takes three people with very specific roles to become actually invincible. Its a skill players have to learn if they want to do it effeciantly and is an entirley different way of play the game.

But the key part is this: You need a team.

Come on.
You needed a team to CoP spike everything in sight.
You needed a team of Ursans to blow the whole map up.
You need a team to enjoy the benefits of SY!.

Some things are just too good.

AmbientMelody · Feb 20, 2010, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deviant Angel

Yeah, totally ignore the people that actually log in and play GW every day. Nobody really matters except the handfull of people that got a "TK" badge.

Awesome idea...

I wonder how long the company would survive off nothing except purchaces made by the test krewe. Just a little something for you to think about while you puff on your pipe.

It's not matter of the changes itself, but their perception. I guess Anet could improve this area, but seeing most posts in a thread such as this kinda defeats more open communication of players with the developers. Countless suggestion topics over Sardelac were never commented on by game devs or PR staff, when you send in a support inquiry you always get to talk to a bot or helpless support staff member with no idea on the mechanics of the game ... better yet, you get advised to post on the fan forums instead. Well, guess what, cycle repeats.

Perhaps Runic or Blizzard can afford more straight communication with the players around their concerns, but this is Anet. Different customer policy, different view of the things. Not necessarily worse or better, just different. Each game requires different way to manage it well, even if I disagree with approach of Anet in this case. Perhaps they just want to avoid flame fests or getting players hope too high up. When you compare their communication on these boards around GW issues compared to the feedback and attention players get in case of GW2, you can pretty much tell what their focus is.

So to say, appreciate what you get and don't hope for more. The problem of GW business model is that they have more incentive to 'boost' the new content to give incentive to buy it, while neglecting the previous installments of the series, even if all of the skills, professions and mechanics introduced need the same quality balancing approach and attention. To be more precise, they have even less incentive to bring more stuff or refine the actual content of the GW game.

They have to maintain it as best as they can in order to create and not lose revenue (as well as to boost gw2 sales and maintain their reputation), but you see, it seems like the new GW dev team got thinner or more silent as of late. Perhaps bad reception of the microtransactions contributed to it (not so much rants over forums but actual number of people which paid for the service), because it looks like the original plan was to introduce updates which basically pay for themselves. I guess they shifted resources and attention to more profitable, long-term areas of the GW franchise development after that. They are a commercial and certainly not a charity company, so I guess they know best what maximises their income?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

Old players have spent the past two years abusing SF to get super rare items and FoW with extra cheap ectos. It already takes double the effort for a new player to earn just as many ectos as someone would have this time last year.

Now with even less/more difficult venues for earning money its going to be almost impossible for newcomers to get into the high end market.

That's pretty much a weakness of all MMO games, especially the ones in which your performance is determined by your items (and not just skills). Some games out there have so much content that the new players will literally never be able to compete with the long-established players and will be put at a permanent disadvantage. In case of GW, the entire economy works like that, even if the entire focus is on looks and bragging rights. PvP has a steep learning curve (virtually no means of development without good guild tutoring you or bunch of friends willing to improve with you), but I still find it to have much easier entry level to the top, if you are committed enough.

Reformed · Feb 20, 2010, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

snip

I'm glad someone else caught that but I think it was just an extremely poor choice of words. I wonder if they are planning to go door to door and rap knuckles with a ruler those who dared to use builds over the years that aren't "acceptable"...LOL

ProX AcciaiO · Feb 20, 2010, 01:57 PM // 13:57

I don't blame the anet for changes, but players who wanted the nerf of SF, and which now since it goes to touch every invulnerability pull you back, saying the perma is so, the 600 is 2, Obsidian flesh is difficult and slow..

they fault!

Nevertheless the gw market will rise, will rise, will rise to impossible and unpredictable

Xsiriss · Feb 20, 2010, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

The problem of GW business model is that they have more incentive to 'boost' the new content to give incentive to buy it, while neglecting the previous installments of the series, even if all of the skills, professions and mechanics introduced need the same quality balancing approach and attention. To be more precise, they have even less incentive to bring more stuff or refine the actual content of the GW game.

They have to maintain it as best as they can in order to create and not lose revenue (as well as too boost gw2 sales and maintain their reputation), but you see, it seems like the new GW dev team got thinner or more silent as of late. Perhaps bad reception of the microtransactions contributed to it, because it looks like the original plan was to reduce updates which basically pay for themselves. I guess they shifted resources and attention to more profitable, long-term areas of the GW franchise development after that. They are a commercial and certainly not a charity company, so I guess they know best what maximises their income?

Except they clearly have had no real business plan from the start. Releasing 3 SEPARATE campaigns that introduced new classes and more skills in each one,thus overly complicating it entirely. 4 Classes that they constantly have to define their role as,in comparison to the core classes. New skills that caused the power creep that has essentially created this problem in the first place, so they can either show us their customers they have learnt and can fix this,or lose us for GW2 (which a lot of people are on the fence about).

Now so far we have receieved promises (being kept 'in the loop',content updates quarterly etc.) and most of these got scrapped or just faded into nothingness. As a business they haven't managed to get a clear business strategy or how to maintain their game.

drkn · Feb 20, 2010, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Perhaps Runic or Blizzard can afford more straight communication with the players around their concerns, but this is Anet.

is Test Krewe an official part of ANet, getting paid and stuff?
aaaand if not - couldn't one of their members focus on collecting data and PR rather than 'balancing the game'?

Jk)Phoenix · Feb 20, 2010, 02:07 PM // 14:07

meh... idk if i will like this update...

WTB: ele buffs

Deviant Angel · Feb 20, 2010, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

is Test Krewe an official part of ANet, getting paid and stuff?
aaaand if not - couldn't one of their members focus on collecting data and PR rather than 'balancing the game'?

No, they are volunteers. It's basically what the alpha test was but with a new name.

AmbientMelody · Feb 20, 2010, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

is Test Krewe an official part of ANet, getting paid and stuff?
aaaand if not - couldn't one of their members focus on collecting data and PR rather than 'balancing the game'?

I guess that's where they need to improve upon. This tactic pretty much reminds of the entire NCSoft strategy, which certainly isn't pro-customer.

Technical problems? Too bad.

Banned account? You certainly botted, now go pay for next account.

What, you don't like the changes we've made? Too bad, but we don't have time to discuss these things with you in a comprehensive fashion, so you understand them. Just so you know, your 'feedback' is very important. If it's too important, you get banned from our forums.

Sounds a bit like overexaggerated rant, but the 'quality' service European players were getting (along with what happened to NCSoft West branch) speak louder than words, I guess.

The question is, how much influence NCSoft has or hasn't, when it comes to community relations strategy of the Anet itself. The next question, what is the NCSoft's impact on the business model as well as game design and content.

Well, I guess we will never get to hear the answers for these.

drkn · Feb 20, 2010, 02:13 PM // 14:13

that's why i've tried to contact the TK over two months ago, but got answered 'TK member list is secret, no one will ever get in touch with them unless they decide so, as you never will have the need to talk with them' or something along there lines. a secret society or a group that voluntarily tries to improve the gameplay for the whole playerbase?

edit:
and a month ago i've asked on wiki (don't remember what was the actual reason, not getting a headsup for updates anyway) about the TK and got answered:

Quote:

It is possible for each member that he/she confirms to be a member of the TK. However there is no and there will never be a list with all people. Also note that Test Krewe members are not representatives of the community, they especially don't contribute to it based on what the rest of the community thinks. Each member was elected on personal experience etc. and only the personal opinions of the members should count for any discussion. In that way no one inside of the TK will listen to any appeals, and nobody will tell you anything from inside. So there is really no need to know any member or to know methods to contact them.

if it's ANet's stand, it's a fail.
if it's TK's stand, it's a complete fail.

AmbientMelody · Feb 20, 2010, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Except they clearly have had no real business plan from the start. Releasing 3 SEPARATE campaigns that introduced new classes and more skills in each one,thus overly complicating it entirely. 4 Classes that they constantly have to define their role as,in comparison to the core classes. New skills that caused the power creep that has essentially created this problem in the first place, so they can either show us their customers they have learnt and can fix this,or lose us for GW2 (which a lot of people are on the fence about).

Now so far we have receieved promises (being kept 'in the loop',content updates quarterly etc.) and most of these got scrapped or just faded into nothingness. As a business they haven't managed to get a clear business strategy or how to maintain their game.

Wholeheartedly agree.

I have been doubting their business and design strategy since Factions, but from retrospection, Nightfall and EOTN brought much more problems, along with GW2 development announcement.

Perhaps it would've been different if they had past experience with developing and maintaining MMO, as well as if they were more financially independent.

I don't know what they are passing in the negotiation table with the NCSoft in terms of GW2, but I hope they will take these and other lessons to heart as well.

3 independent campaigns - I know a lot of people which only bought 1 or 2 campaigns + EOTN. Perhaps expanding upon Tyria and bringing more end-game content would be much better for pve as a whole, but separate campaigns were highly accessible and catered to many tastes of potential players. There was a players' boom both after FA and NF (especially NF) and for some reason pve mentality changed a lot, especially with the introduction of heroes.

Higher difficulty asked for more powerful, specialist builds, established player base asked for quick money making methods for the newcomers, titles suggested that it's about getting it fast and done. PUGs died, old mentality died. For many reasons I liked Prophecies very much just because of the player's mentality. PvE was a joke, except for the immersion and storyline, and I liked that. Plus, the PvP wasn't THAT evolved to force casuals to form imba builds. Times of jumping with random guildmates onto Guild War and winning half of them are gone for good. Well, I guess they will have to address these and other issues for upcoming GW2, bringing BOTH more content and replayability for hardcore, as well as casual base.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

that's why i've tried to contact the TK over two months ago, but got answered 'TK member list is secret, no one will ever get in touch with them unless they decide so, as you never will have the need to talk with them' or something along there lines. a secret society or a group that voluntarily tries to improve the gameplay for the whole playerbase?

edit:
and a month ago i've asked on wiki (don't remember what was the actual reason, not getting a headsup for updates anyway) about the TK and got answered:

if it's ANet's stand, it's a fail.
if it's TK's stand, it's a complete fail.

TK should and has to be independent (at least in theory), but lack of communication and transparency certainly invites creation of influential lobbying group, either within or outside the TK.

I guess even more room for improvement in this one

Bill Clinton · Feb 20, 2010, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Come on.
You needed a team to CoP spike everything in sight.
You needed a team of Ursans to blow the whole map up.
You need a team to enjoy the benefits of SY!.

Some things are just too good.

This isnt about Ursan, CoP or SY. Its about the fact that shadow form allows anyone to mindlessly solo many, many, maaaaaany places in the game. Its about the fact that shadow form is so easy that it dominates every single elite area in the game except for DoA. And even then they can complete places like gloom with a single hero.

600/Smite would never dominate the elite areas. It always has and always would exist as a side option to the main farming builds. Its interesting to play and often not as profitable as other teams.

Theres no need to nerf it.

fenix · Feb 20, 2010, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

This isnt about Ursan, CoP or SY. Its about the fact that shadow form allows anyone to mindlessly solo many, many, maaaaaany places in the game. Its about the fact that shadow form is so easy that it dominates every single elite area in the game except for DoA. And even then they can complete places like gloom with a single hero.

600/Smite would never dominate the elite areas. It always has and always would exist as a side option to the main farming builds. Its interesting to play and often not as profitable as other teams.

Theres no need to nerf it.

You're just saying that because you're bitter they realised it needs nerfing too. 600 Smite is just as bad. It allows you to 2 man LOTS of areas in the game. Not as many as SF, but that's why SF is getting nerfed too. 600 Smite needs it because it's too strong as well.

Guild Wars is a team game, as hinted by the name, NOT a solo/2 man game.

Reformed · Feb 20, 2010, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

600/Smite would never dominate the elite areas. It always has and always would exist as a side option to the main farming builds. Its interesting to play and often not as profitable as other teams.

Trio strip mined the Foundry while most teams were struggling to Vent the hackneyed searingway build. It was also the premier dungeon running tool before SF became the mainstay and was seeing plenty of UW use. It's also one of the fastest if not the fastest way to build allegiance rep in the game at the moment. Nobody is going to argue that it isn't more complicated to use than SF (I hope) but to ignore the fact that it along with OF would fill the vacuum left by SF is just disingenuous. Anet got it in their heads that after years of fostering this type of play it's no longer acceptable. Better to just wipe the slate clean and come up with the next big thing than bring up another generation of invincis they will just have to nerf again in 6 months when we get another 50+ page Guru thread.

Phaern Majes · Feb 20, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

I read those and I liked what I see. I'll definitely being testing out the hammer and some of the tactics skills. I'll also probably finish a campaign with my Rit, who I put away as soon as I hit 20. The only thing I think may be dubious is the rework of Blood Magic, but I'll wait until it comes out and give it a shot.

To all those bitching, don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out. Really won't miss any farming elitists if you don't come back for GW2

Seriously, I think these changes are a step in the right direction. But then I haven't been using over powered builds to farm galore.

Lanier · Feb 20, 2010, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

I read those and I liked what I see. I'll definitely being testing out the hammer and some of the tactics skills. I'll also probably finish a campaign with my Rit, who I put away as soon as I hit 20. The only thing I think may be dubious is the rework of Blood Magic, but I'll wait until it comes out and give it a shot.

To all those bitching, don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out. Really won't miss any farming elitists if you don't come back for GW2

Seriously, I think these changes are a step in the right direction. But then I haven't been using over powered builds to farm galore.

I agree completely. Stop whining guys. At least they have a new skill update, which they havent had for PvE since September. There are also some pretty cool changes, and I like most of the changes I see. Do I think that after 5 months, more attributes should have had reworks? Yes. But I do like what I see. SoS was overpowered and needed a nerf so there is no reason for anyone to be QQing about it. Honestly, to those of you who are farming elitists and who are whining about the farming aspects of this update, please just stop playing and make the rest of us happy already.

AOD_EaSyKiLL · Feb 20, 2010, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Shadow Form and Invulnerability

In tackling Shadow Form, we decided to take a larger look at the issues involved. We didn’t want to simply nerf Shadow Form and cause a mass migration to another overpowered build, only to nerf that after players start using it. It’s not possible to predict all of the clever combinations that players may invent, but we’d like to establish clearer guidelines for ourselves and for players as to what is and isn't acceptable. This should help us with any future buffs or nerfs related to end game PvE.
Based on our testing, observation and discussion, we expect to make changes to Shadow Form, Obsidian Flesh, and to a skill or two used in 600-Smite builds.

While I don't totally disagree with how most people are interpreting this, I think their thoughts are, basically, we want to nerf SF everywhere but Raptor/Green farming. My guess is they are shooting for a duration that will cover most green farms and Raptor farms, but keep it low enough to prevent dungeon running and maitainability.

I also believe they are shooting for something similar in the 600/Smite, except they are probably looking at a time standpoint. What times are acceptable to finish HM content and what will slow this down to those times. My guess is it will revolve around Spellbreaker.

Actually, I think SF, OF and SB will all get very similar treatment. A little longer duration, a lot longer recharge or some disabling effect. SB would also become self-target only, so you couldn't just add one more monk. OF will last long enough for a tank to gather aggro and the group to pick off a couple enemies. They will force players to use these skills just for the initial pulls and give them enough time to eliminate a couple key monsters, before they wear off.